DandyDude

[quote=MrsHeels;119364]Okay Katherine, I'll elaborate. Perhaps "a certain amount" would be a better choice of words. I'm referring to those who evntually leave their families and try to live as woman. I am not talking about your run of the mill male heel wearer. I'm talking about a certain group that considers wearing heels to be somehow being female. I'm trying to avoid anything that might offend a casual surfer here, so I may not be as clear as I would like to be. I can send you some links, but I won't post them as I don't wish to give any publicity to those sites.

I mentioned what I did because I thought maybe Susan above was obliquely referring to men who do start out wearing heels in a secretive manner, lying to their wives and then trying to live as a woman. From what I understand, that sort of thing causes anguish to many women. My above post was trying to tell her that most of us are not that way.

Again, my wording could have been better and I'll change it now.

Jay

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"To kiss, pretty Saki, thy shoes' pretty tips, is better than kissing another girl's lips." -Omar Khayyam

Susan (the original)

With so much that has been written here and the deeply felt considerations I'm not sure where to start. It is refreshing to see the amount of thought that has been triggered by this thread.

Chris, I'm going to hit on a bit of reality here. You have an unfavorable opinion of choices I made for myself. You expressed it about my permanent heels. I can understand that. In the scope of plain reason I might also be able to appreciate it. Please, I'm not taking a jab at you, I only wish to make a point. So, I have an unfavorable opinion of men wearing high heels. (and most of the other things that have been mentioned on the recent posts) What I have learned in the past 9 years is women aren't 'allowed' to have a decenting opinion surrounding men and heels.

History is an incredible teacher, and it continues to this day. To make a very long story very short, for years on these forums I stood my ground defending myself and women in general. Many of the threads are still in place. Many have been edited or completely deleted. I'm not simply speaking of this forum. From the old sites they're all gone. I took an incredible amount of heat, verbal abuse, and have been called everything except human. This went on for about 4 years. My e-mail address was openly available and common knowledge. I used to speak of 2 kinds of e-mails I received, (1) those that were very kind and written with interest, and (2) those that were full of pure contempt and hate for me and my kind. There was a 3rd kind of e-mail I never mentioned, for what will be obvious reasons. I started receiving e-mails from wives/girlfriends caught in abusive situations. Through their husbands/boyfriends activity on the internet the women witnessed what was happening to me and others. What came to the surface was the same kind of contempt and hate expressed on the internet was taking place in their homes. One of the first I came in touch with is a woman about half my age now blind in one eye with a disfigured face after the beating she took. Wearing heels and a dress he laid down the law to her and she said "NO". It's called abuse and domestic violence. That's where I've been the past 3 years, taking a stand where it will be heard. For the gentlemen who elect to wear heels, be my guest, enjoy yourself, I simply don't care. But when that woman says "NO", she don't mean "maybe".

I really don't care to hear about style or fashion or stereotyping as an "excuse" for behavior. It's noteable here that with most any mention of a woman's will and choice to say "no", it's met with contempt. Plain and simple. Interestingly enough it even takes place in the "girls section".

Chris, on a personal picture, I've had 2 incidents with high heel or fetish obcessed men. We have stalking laws in this country and when properly used they work. In one circumstance a wealth of issues surfaced, above and beyond my complaint and charges. He's now in prison. For what it's worth that one originated on the internet.

Peter and Jay, there's a lot that goes on in a faction of this world that simply is beyond me. It's none of my business, nothing can be done about it, at least until someone else is suffering for it. Your thoughts are well taken and appreciated. I said this in another post but I'm going to repeat it. I lost my first husband to cancer and remarried a couple years later. Two incredible men, neither with any fixation with high heels.

I believe it was Dr. Shoe who said the forum will be only as good as the people make it. Absolutely true. The effort and time put forth by the individuals responsible for the forum is obviously tremendous. They are to be thanked and appreciated. Time will become history and that will demonstrate what the members elect to do.

There's an incredibly wonderful world out there, I do enjoy it very much. I have everything a woman could dream of or want and I've had 2 incredible men to thank for it. With that, I will for the rest of my life regret having told of and shared my choices and lifestyle.

Respectfully to all here

Susan

chris100575

Hi Susan

I didn't feel you were having a jab at me, I just wanted to better understand your position, and it sounds like you've come into contact with some real low-lifes. If the majority of the guys who wear heels you've had experience of have been abusive or obsessive, then I can completely understand where you're coming from. I also appreciate that the fact that you're prepared to discuss this is indicative that you don't necessarily tar us all with the same brush. I'm not going to go into detail, but a couple of women very dear to me have been abused in their past, so I have some experience of what they've been through. Of course I cannot fully understand it, but I've seen the resultant emotional pain.

As for the lack of understanding for the woman's feelings when she struggles to deal with the fact that her man wants to wear heels, I think a lot of it on here is simply because the vast majority of us are guys who either do wear heels or want to. We have to put up with society as a whole judging us for our choice of something as arbitrary as footwear, not to mention the one person we care most about in the world in the case of those of us with wives / girlfriends.

In my case, my ex-wife really stuggled with the fact that I wear heels even though I told her before we got married, and in fact when we'd not even been together very long. She made me feel like it was something that I should be ashamed of, and that I was less of a man because of it. It may just be that I cannot see from a female point of view, but I struggled to understand why she felt this way about my shoes, particularly as I didn't have a problem with the fact that she almost exclusively wore shoes that I considered to be unfeminine. It seemed unfair, and she was the one person in the world that I thought I could count on to support me while I was going through something I was having a hard time dealing with myself. I was never unfaithful, never hit her, never verbally abused her, but was still made to feel like I was doing something wrong. Like I said, the reason this seems unfair to me may just be because I cannot see from a female point of view. In my case I felt as though the choice was all hers, and that my feelings didn't matter. We did eventually come to a workable compromise, but I felt as though I wasn't allowed to be myself. We split up for unrelated reasons by the way, and are on friendly terms.

The reason I've gone into this is because a lot of men have been through similar experiences. With the majority of the members here being males who either wear heels or want to, unfortunately the pervading sympathy is going to be with the man, because we see his situation as a reflection of our own. It doesn't mean that we don't care about the woman's feelings, just that it's harder for us to empathise with her especially on a subject that we feel strongly about ourselves.

By the way, please understand that I wasn't judging you for your permanent heels, I was just making a point. My reasons for not being in favour of the practise are partly because I think it could be physically harmful, partly for practical reasons, and also partly because I've read a few posts from guys with a high heel fetish who have expressed a wish for their partner to become permanently heeled.

With regards, Chris

Dr. Shoe

Can we have a little bit of a reality check here?

The OP's original question was why was the HHplace "resurrected"?

The reason why it was resurrected was because there was a demand for it. The main reason it "died" was because of all the spam, it was driving people away.

Ok, there are transgendered people around and that's fine, in fact I am transgendered myself though I am not a transexual (No debates about this please!). Also many of the posters here like to wear skirts with their heels and others choose to be more discrete about their heel wearing and in all other respects wear men's clothes. The skirt wearers (and others) are FREESTYLERS not transgendered.

The bottom line is is that transexuals don't become that way because they wear heels they wear heels and other female garments BECAUSE they are transexuals, or in a few cases, believe that they are.

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Graduate footwear designer able to advise and assist on modification and shoe making projects.

Ozzard

'when that woman says "NO", she don't mean "maybe".'

*loud applause from this corner*

I've helped (to a greater or lesser extent - I try never to hinder, but it's sometimes difficult to tell) a number of folks of both sexes who've been the victims of abuse. I really, *really* wish there was a way of enforcing this where it matters - in private, in daily life.

Ozzard

"they wear heels and other female garments BECAUSE they are transexuals, or in a few cases, believe that they are."

Mmm. Belief is a tricky thing, and communication of that belief even more so.

Gender exist on a continuum (probably multidimensional, with at least physical and mental components). We humans happen to slice up that continuum, point to bits of it and say "that bit is TG", "that bit is TS" and so on. Because you can't put a tape measure on it, different people also point to slightly (occasionally very) different pieces when they say "that bit is TS". This is called communication :-). A decent set of standard tests would help provide that tape measure, but we don't presently have them - and it'd take a fair while to construct and calibrate them, even with appropriate funding.

If you think (say) I'm TG and I think I'm not*, we may have a difference of opinion as to where I am on the continuum, or we may have a difference of opinion on what part of that continuum is labelled "TG".

- Peter

* I think I'm not - I'm a bloke who happens to wear skirts+heels, but is generally happy with his body.

Ozzard

Chris - I told wife #1 within a few weeks of the relationship starting; she said "no problem" immediately and later found she had problems, and requested that I stop. We eventually split, though principally for other reasons. I told wife #2 within a few days of the relationship starting*; she thought it through carefully for a couple of days, then came back and said she accepted it as part of me. It seems a much stronger relationship, partly because we thought things through first.

* For the second time - long story.

Tech

If nobody can stay on topic...........

By all means have your say, please do, please even start a new thread for it if you wish but please dont ruin threads by driving them off the rails.......

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Heels 4 Men - Guys in heels, as guys!

Ozzard

"If nobody can stay on topic"

(I suspect this will be moved - fair enough, but for the reasons I describe below I'd prefer to keep it in the same thread as admin's message - and that's the nub of the problem).

This is a perennial complaint in any threaded collaboration system. It's sometimes difficult to work out where a conversation diverges from the nominal thread topic - especially where people make side comments that trigger responses. And it's frequently useful to keep the history of the communication, even when the topic is not so much turning a corner as corkscrewing.

I've been on the Internet for over 20 years now, starting with Usenet when the number of newsgroups was still in the low hundreds. I've run a social communication system (in my case a MUD) since 1990. I've not yet found any software that "does what I want" in this area! When writing my own software for such things, I've played with the notion that threading is "soft" - that each message stands on its own and can be placed as part of multiple threads, can spin off a new thread (even in a different area) and so on. A tapestry, rather than a series of threads all going in one direction. This is one reason I tend to reply to one point in one post! It's very flexible, but requires considerable discipline on the part of the posters, or a certain amount of cultivation from the moderators.

A question to Admin, or indeed to the moderators: are there any facilities in this new software where normal posters like me can start a new thread linked into an old one by the system, rather than having to post twice, once in the new thread linking back (with links that are sometimes broken by forum upgrades) and then once in the old thread linking forward once you know the URL of the new thread? Such a facility might make people more inclined to split threads when there's an obvious divergence, rather than carry on because they're scared that their fellow contributors won't find the new thread and link it to the current one.

Tech

This software, and all the other forum software that I know of dont do this.

While its ok to diversify a bit, and god know we all do it, I think it gets a bit much when not only does a thread veer off topic but members repeatedly post off topic replies that have nothing to do with the original thread..

If you find that while posting a reply to a thread that you want to diverge into new areas then why not just start a new thread in the right place, you probably dont even need to link the 2 together as people will see the new thread and respond accordingly...

Hope that answers it correctly?

As for resurrecting the forum, I wouldnt call it a resurrection, but more of a cleanup and face lift, along with some new moderators to enforce the forum rules for a change, such as posting of naked body parts in certain sections which have now all been finally removed.

The forum was previously abused so much that I myself stopped using or even visiting it yet I very much wanted it to be something excellent, and a website that all the members can use and enjoy rather than seeing moderators, and even members having to point out and delete spam, abuse, and pornographic postings, all of which overtook them based on the amount of cleaning up we have had to do.

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Heels 4 Men - Guys in heels, as guys!