The Male Lesbian and the Fashion Freestyler - Page 2

DandyDude · 3rd January 2007, 19:30

I still say that the music crowd ought to be encouraged to post here. There are men who wear heels and women who do AND like men who do as well.

I think it has to be realised that women who are looking for a straight-laced business type will always be adamantly opposed to men in heels. They are the ones who are most likely to attract the classic transvestite, ironically enough.

dr1819 · 3rd January 2007, 22:24

The "male lesbian?"

Isn't that more appropriately termed a "transexual lesbian?"

I'm confused, which is rare for me among gender issues...

JeffB · 3rd January 2007, 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr1819

The "male lesbian?"

Isn't that more appropriately termed a "transexual lesbian?"

I'm confused, which is rare for me among gender issues...

I'm also puzzled, which is why I have no patience for labels people place on other people. I'm just an ordinary man who wears women's shoes. What's the flaming big deal about that?

JNR · 4th January 2007, 02:11

Male lesbians! What a CROCK! Clearly this discussions fails to pass the "who cares" test. Another pointless discussion in my opinion. (Is a male "tranny" that likes men a homosexual?....and, like wise, is a male "tranny" that still prefers women a "lesbian?")

DandyDude · 4th January 2007, 03:15

The term USUALLY is used for someone such as Eddie Izzard, as he himself does. It has to do with wearing certain items, and being attracted to women while doing so. He does come from a TV background, and I'd say he has fallen for the psychs' "gender" bullshit. Nice heels, though.

kneehighs · 4th January 2007, 03:51

I wonder how many people actually took the time to read between the covers here (the article linked)?

For those who are still interested, here is an explanation offered by the former member:

Quote:

"Male Lesbian" and "Freestyling"(wearing high heels)

First and foremost, let me start out by saying that I am a man, I have no desires to become a woman, nor do I wish to cross dress as a woman. There are aspects of the female attire that I find apealing (such as high heels), but when I wear them in public, I wear them descretely so that only I know I am wearing them (and maybe others who are keen for looking for specific detail such as what exact footware I wearing).

Let me back up a second and explain why I sought after and found the term and the article on "Male Lesbians".

During my "tenure" on hhplace, I found myself normally left out in the cold. There were guys there that wanted to wear high heels openly and push the fashion boundry. Nope, not me. There were guys out there that enjoyed cross dressing and wearing heels as part of the feminine attire. Again, nope, not me. There were even guys who felt they were women trapped in a man's body and wore heels as part of that. Again, nope, not me.

So why exactly did I wish to wear heels? Upon relection, why does anyone wear heels? The answer we hear from the majority of women is either fashion or extra height. I've already established that I don't wear heels for fashion, the ones I wear are descrete, for me. Being 5'8" for a man, I might not be confused with your average football/basketball star, but I am also not lacking of height either. Also for most women and men that have ever worn a pair of heels, the moment you first put them on the sensation is incredible. The feeling of your foot at an arch is intoxicating. However, as most women (and men) will tell you, walk a few blocks in them, wear them for several hours, and your feet and legs will feel pain. Yet, I ignore all this and continue to wear heels. Why? Why would I endure the pain to wear heels if not for fashion, height, or other reasons mentioned?

This lead me to look around on the internet and see if I could find the reasons. Again, this exercise isn't to pigeon hole anyone into a label, but rather understand myself better.[emphasis by kneehighs] Afterall, if we are to explain to others our passion for wearing heels (wife, gf, parents, sisters, daughters, friends, coworkers) than we have to understand ourself first.

When I first came across the article for "Male Lesbians" I too laughed at the notion. Isn't that the actual definition of an oxymoron? How can a man be a lesbian? It sounded like some male fantasy for a 3some. But then I read further into the article.

Simply put, everyone has two main parts of what makes them them. A physical side and an emotional side (personality). The men interviewed in the article were of course physically men, but, they also had more of an emotional side that normally is associated with women. The term "Male Lesbian" is used to describe the fact that while the men had no desire to change genders, they also deep down wished they had been born a woman as they can relate to women more than men. However, if they would have been born a woman instead, physically, they would have still been attracted to women, not men. Therefore, they would have been a lesbian if born a woman.

Now, taking this definition and looking inward at myself, I can relate. My wife always jokes that I have the soul of a woman. A few examples are; I tend to be very romantic, I start shopping for gifts (anniversary, birthday, valentines day, christmas) MONTHS in advance. And it isn't simply shopping. I try to find something that fits the occasion and the person vs guys tend to run in the day before and buy whatever looks like they would get in less trouble. Another example, if given the opportunity to have a one night stand with a supermodel (no strings and no consiquences) or have a romantic evening in front of a fireplace with my soulmate (even if only cuddling and no sex were involved), I would always take the second. When I spend time with my family on various holidays or events, I always gravitate to being with the women vs sitting and watching sports with the guys. I tend to not get guys alot. I also don't frequent sports bars or watch sports "with the guys". I often spend hours helping my sister inlaw find the right shoes (or whatever else she wants) online. Not in attempt to "get with her" but rather, it is just an activity I just enjoy. My friendships with women tend to be in depth and open. My friendships with men tend to be small talk (there are of course exceptions).

That brings me back again to my original question. So why is it I wear heels when no one else will see them? Well, perhaps it is because wearing the heels allows me to experience what a woman feels while still being a man. And actually, this makes even more sense as I also wear toerings even though they are hidden inside my shoes, I wear an anklet even though it is hidden inside my pant legs, nylons even though they are inside my shoe, etc. Wearing the items allows me to feel the same sensations that women do when they wear the same articles. I have no desire to be a woman, however, I do like feeling the same things that women do.

I am open to comments/feedback. As Kneehighs said, I left hhplace for my own reasons, but I do still read from time to time and I do keep in touch with Kneehighs. I am open to kick this concept around in hopes that maybe it could help others out there that feel the same as I do come to terms with those feelings. Maybe it can help in your explaination with your significant other or parent or whomever. Afterall, you have to first understand yourself before you attempt to explain yourself to others.

DandyDude · 4th January 2007, 04:19

The link didn't work for me, I always got an error messge. I gave up trying.

I have no need to wear heels to "experience what woman are feeling." I do wear them, but not for that reason. I also have a lot of personality traits people associate with women, but I don't see myself as a transsexual. My problem with "male lesbian" is its implication that not being a super-stereotypical man make you a weak person who wants to be a woman.

A person can say they would like to be a woman to be with women. I've had thoughts myself along those lines, no transsexualism involved at all. That comes from envy of certain things that women are allowed to do that men are not. In my case, it also came from the dykes I knew being very "take no shit" types. I'd say that brought about my love of strong women.

When I was a dyke daddy, I was around a lot of them. If I had continued my studies instead of being yanked out because was caught with a girl, I may very well have stayed in the little "family" I had. I often wonder about those women and if I may have eventually married one of them.

kneehighs · 4th January 2007, 04:26

DandyDude--Thanks for the update about the link. Here is the full link

http://www.love-shy.com/Gilmartin/Ch...lelesbian.html

(insert "Chapter05/Malelesbian.html") after Gilmartin in the URL if the above link still does not work.

edit: this quote of yours totally addresses the authors views:

Quote:

Originally Posted by DandyDude

A person can say they would like to be a woman to be with women. I've had thoughts myself along those lines, no transsexualism involved at all. That comes from envy of certain things that women are allowed to do that men are not.

From former board member #1

Quote:

So why is it I wear heels when no one else will see them? Well, perhaps it is because wearing the heels allows me to experience what a woman feels while still being a man. And actually, this makes even more sense as I also wear toerings even though they are hidden inside my shoes, I wear an anklet even though it is hidden inside my pant legs, nylons even though they are inside my shoe, etc. Wearing the items allows me to feel the same sensations that women do when they wear the same articles

Here's another quote from a different former hhplace member. It echos the same sentiments:

Quote:

no matter how strenuously we object to the idea, or how elaborate a set of denials and self-deluding explanations we devise, the basic truth is that we like to participate to some degree in the woman experience. In our public heeling, we seek permission from women to reveal that we feel we are like them in some respect.

Quote:

...<snip>...there is a profound feminine element in the psychology of every heeler, and it is an ineradicable part of our identity.

Quote:

...Damn – the whole male/female vs. masculine/feminine thing is at the root of this. Let's face it: you have a Y chromosome? You're a male. You don't? You're a female. A guy can have his penis turned inside out, get himself pumped full of hormones, and have double-D's implanted, and still every cell in his body has one of those tell-tale little Y's in it. Male/female is by birth – masculine/feminine is up for grabs. All of us just have a little more feminine in the mix than we like to admit....

HellOnHeels · 4th January 2007, 04:26

I think that studies of various behaviors deviating from the socially accepted norm can yield better understanding of what makes us all tick and hopefully lead to a more enlightened approach to therapy (if needed) and maybe one day social aceptance. The process can certainly yield some strange "labels" such as male lesbians. If interpreted literally then the label seems absurd but on further reflection it does start to make some sense to me.

Women's fashion freedom and freedom of expression in general is definitely something I envy. While I enjoy a lot of typically male activities (not into watching sports, more of a gear head) and have male as well as female friends. I feel that I am in some way different from most males. So as a straight guy, when running the thought experiment of what would I be like if I were a woman I definitely come up with a lesbian description.

I suspect that there are many shades of the male lesbian, from the disaffected males in their relations with females on one end of the spectrum to guys who just would like to enjoy some of the freedoms that women do. Kind of like its OK for women to be tomboys. Does that make them female gay-boys?

Kneehighs, Thanks for posting the self analysis by our former member
"Male Lesbian" and "Freestyling"(wearing high heels)
It is very thoughtful and thorough. Furthermore I find I can relate to a lot of what is said.
I feel like I am in the middle. I identify strongly with certain female traits but also with certain male traits. For example would it not be great if I could spend the afternoon working on my hot rod car and then shower and go out in a glamorous outfit and discuss the latest fashion trends. The only stereotypical personality I can think of that even remotely would behave like this is a lesbian. Actually lets forget about wether any lesbian would enjoy an afternoon like I described. The important part is that she could get away with it without looking like a freak and attracting undue attention.

DandyDude · 4th January 2007, 06:15

Thanks for the link, Kneehighs.

The main problem I have with "male lesbian" is that it implies that the man is an imitation woman. I think the thing to do is to try and more fully integrate one's personality. I do know that when I did what I did I didn't even have curiosity about being a woman, that came on reflection later. I also don't buy the "masculine/feminine" dichotomy either.

With all the DSM bull going on, I can't help but recall when men taking style tricks from women was considered a bit hoodlum-y, not the "TG" nonsense it is now. I think how I've met women by asking them for makeup tips, I can't imagine someone who is twenty-ish doing that now, as women appear to want DL types who may very well give them AIDS.

A side note that I'd like comments on: For a long time, a man/boy imitating women in certain ways actually helped him with them, and it was considered daring and a bit hoody as well. Example: Elvis Presley in his early days wore eye makeup, and had his hair dyed and styled in a beauty salon. Of course, we all know Elvis had a lot of female fans.

I can't help but think of The Four Seasons covering "Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow?" That was an absolute chick song, and that took a lotta Moxie for Frankie and his boys to do that!!